[Testing] "Balance" Update

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Zeo » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:40 pm

Soluna wrote:
metricking wrote: anyways back to the main topic, if devcat truly wanted to balance magic shouldnt they just use straight out percents like all the other skill sets?or would that be a bit game breaking?
Until you realize they plan release skill like Chain Casting and Moving Casting...
Chain Casting
Mobile Casting
Instant Casting
Meteor Shower

I believe there's the four new skills for the magic.

However... until the skills of those three Casting doesn't have cool-down or a short cool-down enough to be spammable... I still do not like the idea of new magic formula.

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by metricking » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:17 pm

Zeo wrote:
Chain Casting
Mobile Casting
Instant Casting
Meteor Shower
hope its not just a fire version of hailstorm, was hoping for more of a hellfire skill for the fire adv magic, but as long as its not a fire version of hailstorm im fine with it.
[spoiler]why are u trying to look at this?[/spoiler]

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Kenero » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:27 pm



Heavy Armor with g18~

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Soluna » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:38 pm

Kenero wrote: In a way, the game is going back to that. While a lot of novice and weaker weapons retaining high balance and stronger weapons (such as lances and the Sword of Elsinore) retain lower balance but higher damage.
Swords are not affected, Elsinore has 0% balance, 30% from Sword Mastery and Combat, 50% from Dex is completely fine.

On the other hand something like Mace by the suggested logic to be a "weaker" when upgraded have the path of 0% balance will never reach 80% balance because Blunt Mastery doesn't give balance bonus.

And that's not "penalizing" using weapons you aren't ready, is blatant shunning certain weapon types because you can't do it without balance enchants for them because after upgrade their balance just cannot reach 30% at all.

There's way more different ways to "penalize" player for using weapon they are "not ready" and plenty ways to make each weapon unique (Which frankly they haven't really being doing, most of the new weapons are pretty straight forward singular path upgrades). They are not aiming to "penalize" players, they are aiming to release more skills/enchant/equipment by changing the foundations of the stats. And by doing that it is a whole new game now because there is no standard to base on anymore (Who knows if they are going to change the monster stats and this means bone dragon effect gets nerf'd as well because of the protection change).

And ironically, you can just wear heavy armor and use MAGIC/ALCHEMY you know... because magic balance is based on INT, yes they are promoting MAGIC TANKS. I think is funny people didn't see that... What they really need is Nosefertu though.
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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by hen937 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:50 pm

metricking wrote:
Armelle wrote:I find it funny it took this long for people to start complaining about elves getting shafted...(`・ω・´)

everytime i'd bring it up i'd usually get some reply about some no lifer who has too much dex and does nothing but magnum
except my point is all we can do is magnum, and there's the problem.

anything besides magnum, and maybe a larger mp pool-we are downright inferior in.
i usually complain about it to get that same reply, most people used to say we were better at ranged because our mag was ALMOST instant, but as of the dynamic combat system humans have instant mag also, there really isn't much of an argument for elves having an advantage in ANY destiny except for the fact we have Final Shot which i find next to useless on my elf when i was still an archer, even at r1 the only thing it was useful for was the extra dex,
Soluna wrote:
metricking wrote: anyways back to the main topic, if devcat truly wanted to balance magic shouldnt they just use straight out percents like all the other skill sets?or would that be a bit game breaking?
Until you realize they plan to release skill like Chain Casting and Moving Casting...
anyways now those sound like fun,i think ill run rabbie like mores does when they do. and to think i was planning on going to reset my skills and just go alch to make money from synthesis to support making a new human.
This a false hood in this thought that all humans have had in the past that elf's get more mana then other races, this not necessarily true,if we break down the basic stats of each race the there level given this is before your talent or g18 update with raw stats alone.

Elf's mana is the same has humans reaching a max of 731 but humans can take a class in tir elf's cant giving them 5 more toward it. This basically showing that humans even surpass elf's in the supposedly best stat.While you claim that elf's have more dex, you be wrong again, base line dex for humans 705 elfs 710 but again if the humans read a book they get by duncan that they receive from being a adult they can receive 5 from it and a class from Ranald another 2 more tipping the scale to elf's at 710 and humans at 712.

Know you may claim that elf's have more stam but yet again that invalid, elf can get at max 818 where humans receive 809 but if you complete the journal entries for transformation human receive once again a total of 822. where elf's doing the same transformation quest will receive add hp.

So you claim well they must have more int. Elf's can get a total of 831 but humans and giants have the potential of getting at least 835 if they read all the almanacs and the Environments books. Well you claim Elf's must be good at something....but after many years of reading and number crunching for my race i found that is no benefit in being a elf other than for looks.

After many years of trying to become a combat elf and excelled for many years, fighter has brought to light the problems of my race. As these talents continue you can see a trend of Strength mixed into something else as like puppet and gunner as a elf and unable to pick up a lance i am missing 150 strength compared to every other race. While i understand giants will have a similar problem i don't see why giants cant make or wear crossbows, given there historical backgrounds because they require strength to wind them back, with is seriously shown elf's lack.

In exchange for elf's getting lances and the strength returned I would understand that giants could receives bows or crossbows because giants have a -122 dex thought this is large is not as the elf's with -150 less then humans and giants.

Even showing more that these new stats of strength determined the new defense, elf's will no longer be a valid character due to the squishiness and lack of chances to changed it. With no heavy armor they cant make up necessary stats and or enchants to efficaciously survive.

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Kenero » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:44 am

Soluna wrote:
Kenero wrote: In a way, the game is going back to that. While a lot of novice and weaker weapons retaining high balance and stronger weapons (such as lances and the Sword of Elsinore) retain lower balance but higher damage.
Swords are not affected, Elsinore has 0% balance, 30% from Sword Mastery and Combat, 50% from Dex is completely fine.

On the other hand something like Mace by the suggested logic to be a "weaker" when upgraded have the path of 0% balance will never reach 80% balance because Blunt Mastery doesn't give balance bonus.

And that's not "penalizing" using weapons you aren't ready, is blatant shunning certain weapon types because you can't do it without balance enchants for them because after upgrade their balance just cannot reach 30% at all.

There's way more different ways to "penalize" player for using weapon they are "not ready" and plenty ways to make each weapon unique (Which frankly they haven't really being doing, most of the new weapons are pretty straight forward singular path upgrades). They are not aiming to "penalize" players, they are aiming to release more skills/enchant/equipment by changing the foundations of the stats. And by doing that it is a whole new game now because there is no standard to base on anymore (Who knows if they are going to change the monster stats and this means bone dragon effect gets nerf'd as well because of the protection change).

And ironically, you can just wear heavy armor and use MAGIC/ALCHEMY you know... because magic balance is based on INT, yes they are promoting MAGIC TANKS. I think is funny people didn't see that... What they really need is Nosefertu though.
True enough. Though I think the reason for the -35% dex was meant for humans who are able to use Range Attack than giants who don't have an effective range.

It seems someone at devCat forgot that giants need dex for balance. They may rebalanced that only humans get this penalty.

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Majimari » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:54 am

Kenero wrote:True enough. Though I think the reason for the -35% dex was meant for humans who are able to use Range Attack than giants who don't have an effective range.

It seems someone at devCat forgot that giants need dex for balance. They may rebalanced that only humans get this penalty.
Giants already have a lot of combat advantages already. In fact they practically have no real disadvantages at all. I'm sick and tired of always seeing humans and elves getting the short end of the stick while the giants tons of advantages. So it wouldn't kill giants to actually have a single disadvantage for once =P

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Yoorah » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:01 am

While race balance is not perfect in this game (is there such a thing in any game?), it's for the most part a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side." This is true in real life as well, so I'd recommend you always keep this in mind. :P

I haven't looked into the mechanics rebalance in detail myself. It does however look pretty exciting overall, especially for alchemy. You have to admit that combat mechanics were getting way too bland in this game for many years now, so their attempts to add more variety and change things up a bit are welcome in my view. The question is how well they tuned this--a question that shall be answered in the very near future, I think. x3
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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by metricking » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:01 am

hen937 wrote: This a false hood in this thought that all humans have had in the past that elf's get more mana then other races, this not necessarily true,if we break down the basic stats of each race the there level given this is before your talent or g18 update with raw stats alone.

Elf's mana is the same has humans reaching a max of 731 but humans can take a class in tir elf's cant giving them 5 more toward it. This basically showing that humans even surpass elf's in the supposedly best stat.While you claim that elf's have more dex, you be wrong again, base line dex for humans 705 elfs 710 but again if the humans read a book they get by duncan that they receive from being a adult they can receive 5 from it and a class from Ranald another 2 more tipping the scale to elf's at 710 and humans at 712.

Know you may claim that elf's have more stam but yet again that invalid, elf can get at max 818 where humans receive 809 but if you complete the journal entries for transformation human receive once again a total of 822. where elf's doing the same transformation quest will receive add hp.

So you claim well they must have more int. Elf's can get a total of 831 but humans and giants have the potential of getting at least 835 if they read all the almanacs and the Environments books. Well you claim Elf's must be good at something....but after many years of reading and number crunching for my race i found that is no benefit in being a elf other than for looks.

After many years of trying to become a combat elf and excelled for many years, fighter has brought to light the problems of my race. As these talents continue you can see a trend of Strength mixed into something else as like puppet and gunner as a elf and unable to pick up a lance i am missing 150 strength compared to every other race. While i understand giants will have a similar problem i don't see why giants cant make or wear crossbows, given there historical backgrounds because they require strength to wind them back, with is seriously shown elf's lack.

In exchange for elf's getting lances and the strength returned I would understand that giants could receives bows or crossbows because giants have a -122 dex thought this is large is not as the elf's with -150 less then humans and giants.

Even showing more that these new stats of strength determined the new defense, elf's will no longer be a valid character due to the squishiness and lack of chances to changed it. With no heavy armor they cant make up necessary stats and or enchants to efficaciously survive.
agreed, altho there is 1 heavy armor set elves can wear (dragons) anyways as much as i hate quoting myself....
metricking wrote: this topic of racial inequality caught my attention,since my main is my elf and after mastering all of magic and melee(purely for survivability purposes) i noticed that there are NO perks to being and elf, and ive been thinking about starting the game over on a human cuz they have EVERYTHING, they are supposed to be the balanced race but they have the best of everything.....SERIOUSLY WHAT HAPPENED TO BALANCED RACE, anyways am i the only one who feels elves should get an exclusive magic destiny?, i mean i can see that fitting into the game easily, something like recently discovered ruins that contain secrets of lost elven magic anyways back to the main topic, if devcat truly wanted to balance magic shouldnt they just use straight out percents like all the other skill sets?or would that be a bit game breaking?(im going to shoot someone if they point out that alchemy isnt based on percents)
i doubt many people would agree with me on that, or if nexon were to make those 3 passives casting abilities elves only, they probaly wont agree with me if i were to say make hybrid skills for elves only, combining archery and magic.... or making an assassin talent for elves only, (im only saying that only because of our hide and speed)
Yoorah wrote:While race balance is not perfect in this game (is there such a thing in any game?), it's for the most part a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side." This is true in real life as well, so I'd recommend you always keep this in mind. :P

I haven't looked into the mechanics rebalance in detail myself. It does however look pretty exciting overall, especially for alchemy. You have to admit that combat mechanics were getting way too bland in this game for many years now, so their attempts to add more variety and change things up a bit are welcome in my view. The question is how well they tuned this--a question that shall be answered in the very near future, I think. x3
race balance perfect....THERE IS NO BALANCE!elves just get screwed over, im still wondering y they gave elves lower percentages in fighter when str isn't even part of that talent -.-... if we had at least one talent we were the best at then i wouldn't mind. but we don't -.-, and as stated above since elves dont have much str we wont even have defense comparable to the other races, added to the fact that we didnt have that already since the base defense we get from defense is less than humans and giants already.

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Re: [Testing] "Balance" Update

Post by Armelle » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:15 am

metricking wrote:SERIOUSLY WHAT HAPPENED TO BALANCED RACE.
metricking wrote:anyways am i the only one who feels elves should get an exclusive magic destiny?, i mean i can see that fitting into the game easily, something like recently discovered ruins that contain secrets of lost elven magic
as much as i see your point of view,and am also a "suffering elf"-i really don't believe making more race exclusive stuff is going to make any of this better.
the game started from the base up as a jack of all trades game, the only reason it isn't anymore is because of these stupid races they added.
you could argue they stopped doing the jack of all trades when they added dark knights, really. can't have both.

what the races need are something that makes up for what they don't have/replaces what they can't use for something of equal use.
(and i don't mean for the sake of using it, make it strong enough to compete with what they are missing out on)
and to be quite blunt about it, a few int or mana points aside. magic is the most universal skill set in the game if you ignore dumb alchemy.

while the stat ideas i had probably aren't perfect, especially after this "rebalance" i did have some ideas for replacement weapons:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1541&start=50#p14789

as for them not being as good with weapons that use str, well.
i dunno, honestly. theres no way around it without them giving them better str gain.
and at that point youd may as well make all the races entirely equal,no?

its kind of an endless loop of "jack of all trades" or "jack of some trades with a few minor damage losses"

i think my weapon variation idea would at least keep them unique without really messing with the stats too much.
it doesn't do anything for the more recent multi race skill sets though, sadly.
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